Let's Talk About A 4g63 Powerd Class For The Shoot Out

[mitsurage]

From what I understand some years back there was a 4g63 powered class at the Shootout. What are the chances of this ever surfacing again? I will be attending the Shootout this year and would like to participate in this sort of class. I believe that swapped cars have a whole separate list when it comes to limitations. Most of these cars are built by average Joes and not about taking home the trophy in the fastest baddest class. They are more to prove something can be fabricated up and still run with some respect. I feel these cars should not be tucked in to compete with the DSMs and Evos, but rather celebrated in their own class.

Thank you

[blue64tsi]

think that would be bracket 1 or 2 or quick 16

[GreenMachine]

Well, under the current system those would be only classes. But lets face it, Q16 is limited to just the fastest cars, brackets are… well… brackets… and many people hate them.

Years ago, there used to be a heads-up “DSM powered class”, but unfortunately not enough cars participated so it was removed from the line-up. Considering that in good year there were 2-3 legit “engine swap cars” and a couple of regular DSMs (sneaking in under “it is, after all, DSM powered” loophole), that was a right decision.

But in 2010, there seems to be a lot more RUNNING cars which could complete in this class. On one side we have “natural swaps”, for cars which originally came with other 4GX Mitsu engines: Mirages/Colts/Summits/Hyundais/MightyMax/D50. On the other side, we have more involved swaps: Fiero, Starions, Mustangs, Stratus and so on.

I always believed that there will come a time when this intriguing class will be re-instated, so could it be 2011?

I think that class rules need to be tweaked: No DSMs, No “fast race car” (those should stay in the Q16). This would be “fun class” for people who appreciate 4G63 enough to go through a considerable effort to put into another car!

BUT… this class is only worth bringing back if we can get enough participation in it! I liked how it was done with the “stock turbo class”: get people to agree and then maybe even pre-pay in advance.

So, lets test the waters and see just how much interest in such class.

[KyleCim]

There are quite a few cars being swapped in our area as you know Leon, I think us guys in New England would be able to field at least 6-7 cars minimum. I agree that these cars should not be all out race cars BUT we have to be careful with rules. For instance, my Mustang swap will be using a fuel cell and missing the instrument cluster, short exhaust etc. which many would justify a race car but I will be street driving it. You could make it an index class, 10.50 breakout-10.00 breakout etc which will leave the single digit and faster cars for Q16. I think it is a great idea to bring this back though.

[GRAVEDIGGER]

But in 2010, there seems to be a lot more RUNNING cars which could complete in this class. On one side we have “natural swaps”, for cars which originally came with other 4GX Mitsu engines: Mirages/Colts/Summits/Hyundais/MightyMax/D50. On the other side, we have more involved swaps: Fiero, Starions, Mustangs, Stratus and so on.

I always believed that there will come a time when this intriguing class will be re-instated, so could it be 2011?

I think that class rules need to be tweaked: No DSMs, No “fast race car” (those should stay in the Q16). This would be “fun class” for people who appreciate 4G63 enough to go through a considerable effort to put into another car!

I agree. I think there might be enough out there to do it, but the rules should be tweaked like you said to make it more of a fun class because that is what most of these cars are all about.

[GreenMachine]

There are quite a few cars being swapped in our area as you know Leon, I think us guys in New England would be able to field at least 6-7 cars minimum. I agree that these cars should not be all out race cars BUT we have to be careful with rules. For instance, my Mustang swap will be using a fuel cell and missing the instrument cluster, short exhaust etc. which many would justify a race car but I will be street driving it. You could make it an index class, 10.50 breakout-10.00 breakout etc which will leave the single digit and faster cars for Q16. I think it is a great idea to bring this back though.

Kyle,

This idea is to keep fast cars in the Q16 class and not to limit the mods that people can do. It seems that making this a 10.0 class makes the most sense. Unless someone comes up with a better idea.

Perhaps limit the tires to DOT for everyone, but FWD cars?

[KyleCim]

That was going to be my next suggestion. Awd & Rwd limited to DOT 10.5" tire, FWD can run slicks and 10.0 breakout. No rules on modifications etc. And no DSM body (eclipse, talon, laser, Galant vr4). Newer generation Galant swaps ok, that should leave it pretty open for a wide group. We all know how common with these cars how easy it is for the quicker cars to break and leave the door open for other people so even cars in the 12 and 11 second range would be able to join in.

[David Buschur]

The class makes no sense, zero, none.

There are 4 classes for DSM powered cars already. Q16, Time Trial and two Bracket Classes.

You guys want a heads up class for a bunch of different drive line configurations, trans swaps, etc., makes ZERO sense. Now a suggestion to have a 10.0 index class. So you are telling me your going to have 6-7 cars that run 10's consistently? hahaha

I hear the "Brackets sucks, nobody wants to go slow." Where is it stated bracket cars are slow? The class goes to ZERO seconds, that's faster than the world record of mid 4's. If you've got a car you built with a 4g63 in it (and I'm pretty familiar with this since I did the first one and many fast ones after that) then there is no reason for it to not be able to dominate a Bracket race. It should have a superior trans to any DSM running in the class, trans brakes, line locks, RWD etc. all benefits to winning a bracket race. If the car is fast then you can bracket race your 9 second car and if it's running 9's or faster consistently it should be in Q16 anyway.

Discuss it but it makes not sense to have another class to run/manage for a complete mixed up bunch of cars to run heads up in.

My brother has TWO 4g63 powered cars, a 1940 Ford Pick up and now a 1941 AWD EVO Chassis Willy's. I have a 1932 Ford 3 window coupe. SO it's not like we are clueless or being biased because we aren't interested. Fact is the class makes no sense what-so-ever.

[g96nt]

I get that we'd like to streamline/consolidate for the sake of moving the day along.
We all realize that there's a ton of people that decide to race on this day, and that managing it is a giant pain in the ass. I'm sure the biggest reason for not wanting another class is simply that you don't want to have to manage another class.
the fact is; most people that do 4g63-swaps do them as a exhibition project. Most aren't building racecars; we're building cool/fun swaps that happen to be pretty quick.
Although, the goal is to be fast(or at least faster than the original motor), they're most-often not Q16 qualifying fast. It goes without saying that they're not bracket/index class consistant.

I don't think any of us are asking for giant purse (I wouldn't personally be looking for money, as much as competitive classing)

I think that having incentive ($$) for people with fast cars; whether 4g63-swaps, or DSM to run in the fast classes vs the DSM-powered class will keep the dsm-powered class as mostly-exhibition type racing, and pretty competitive.
Of course, if you only end up with 3-4 4g63-swapped cars that are looking for entry, you can s-can the class.

Granted, I've only ever done one, people love them. I'm still asked aboutmy old Galant, 8 years later.
I haven't really been into DSM's in the last few years, and certainly not following the DSM-powered "field", but I know there's a class-worth of them out there.
As Leon said, there's 6-7 locally that are slated to be done this year, and I'm expecting to have another Galant done before summer. It won't be a q16 car, and I sure as hell don't want to drive to OH to run brackets, when I can do that here, every friday night.


I don't see how there would be any harm in sketching up the framework of a dsm-powered class again, but keeping it non-racecar with TW ratings, and whatnot.
if there's no interest, the class will dissolve itself.

[GreenMachine]

David, it must have made sense at some point for you to carry this class for many years! After all, this class was YOUR creation! So you spoiled us with the idea of this class

I will admit that DSM community was not ready for that class back in '98-'02 (or whenever it ended). But it has been almost ten years! There are many DSMers who would love to race in class like this!

Why not give this class a chance? If we get ~15 racers to re-pay and register for this class, will you bring it back? We wouldn’t even need a big payout (in fact, I prefer that we do not!!!)

On the other hand, if we only have a handful of cars, those drivers will have find one of the other classes to enter.

BTW, one of the rule tweaks should be a change in the name: instead of DSM powered, it would be 4G63 Powered, so that EVO powered cars can also enter.

Just think now awesome it will be to have a line in staging lines of cars with 4G63 motor swaps!

Craig, I would not exclude DSMs if they had RWD conversion. Or for that matter, had two 4G63s.

[kjewer1]

I agree, there are so many swaps out lately that we should give this another try. I would bring the MightyMax out for this and have my girlfriend race it since I'll be in Q16 with the Talon. I would never bother to drag the Max out 1500 miles to run it in brackets, I hate brackets. And I don't really consider Time Trials a class. I imagine this class would be a blast for the spectators, it would be my second favorite next to Q16.

If we're concerned about interest, and that is always a concern, let's just get 16 people to pre-pay with no refund, then there's a good chance that we'll have a full field to start with. The rules need to be kept simple for this. If we're just concerned about keeping race cars out and in Q16 where they belong, we could require the cars to be registered (though registering even mild swaps can be difficult in some states). Maybe compressor size and tire limitations, but that's about it.

[mitsurage]

Let's be real, a great bracket car can be ridiculously fast all the way to well lets just say "slower". Most of the bracket race is done playing with dials, cutting lights, and a clean run. The other part is the reliability of the car. From what I see, most swapped cars are not built for drag racing let alone bracket racing. As we know these swapped cars are a lot about just doing something different and as a result you can have a pretty respectable car on the drag strip not a "drag strip car". But being respectable does not put them in the territory of Q16. Yes there are some super fast swaps that run Q16 but that is besides the point. This class should be looked at as an "average Joe" kind of class. From a marketing standpoint is it a problem? Will this somehow hurt a reputation? Waste money?

I for one believe that this is a draw to a more intelligent and skilled type customer. These cars may be built in a home garage but have more thought put it to them than your average bolt on car.

I say the old Fords should run. I would rather see them go down the track than most of the big baller cars.

[David Buschur]

I have a feeling regardless of what I say, it's going to make no difference, that's pretty obvious. I'll give it a shot anyway.

Adding another class is a PITA, true dat. The class wouldn't have a big pay out, so don't worry about that.

Classing it based on turbo size, tire size etc. is FUCKING STUPID, sheesh. So you want a class to cater to being creative and building unique cars but then want to restrict it based on a turbo choice or tire size? Do you guys work for the NOPI and the NHRA? haha The suggestions on restricting a class like that goes against what building the car is about in the first place. On top of that, anyone who thinks the turbo is the limiting factor in how fast a car goes is way off too. I ran 7.8's on an old junk T67 Ptrim turbo, that's SMALL by today's standards, hell we use bigger turbo's than that on street cars now!

The other thing is you guys talk like the cars don't have a place to run. There are FOUR (4) classes for these cars to run in already. Not bringing a car like this to the shootout to either show off because it's unique or racing it in one of the existing FOUR classes is silly.

Not wanting to run Bracket is fine, I don't like it either. Putting together a heads up class for cars that are going to run from 8's to 17's is stupid, putting rules on a group of cars like this to try to make them equal is stupid, thinking the rules will make the cars equal is stupid.

This '32 Ford I'm building is using an EVO engine, TH400 trans, Ford 9" with 3.90 gears and a stock style EVO turbo-FP Red. Given we've had EVO's run 9.50's on the Red and they weighed in at 2800 pounds, this car will weight barely over 2,000 pounds.............how are you going to equalize a class by turbo size? You are not.

There's FOUR classes already. It's impossible to make a separate race class for a field like this.

The only thing I can see is you guys want a separate class to be announced so there's some chance that someone will hear it being announced and walk to the stands to watch it because they are "4G63 powered". I believe the guys interested in those types of cars will be up there to watch anyway, even if you are running the Time Trials.

[GreenMachine]

David,

I understand that adding an extra class could be a PITA, so I wouldn't want to bring it back unless there is a significant number of cars in it (15+). Speaking of which what numbers did you get last year in each class?

I agree that turbo sized classes do not make sense (just look at what a 14b can do!)

How would you feel about making it a 10.0 index class? Normally, I am not a huge fan of index classes, but in this case, it just might work! This way all the 8 and 9 second cars will stick in the Q16 class.

And 10.0 makes a very natural limit, because most of us can not run under 10 sec. at out home tracks, anyway.

[David Buschur]

Still not making sense. An Index class runs much like a Bracket Class. In this case you are asking for a 10.0 Index. So anyone going faster than 10.0 is going to break out. In order to run ONE Index class and it be competitive you are expecting to see the majority of the field running basically a 10.0 dial in. The slower cars would still be beat by the cars dialing in at 10.0. You are right back to a bracket race but one that doesn't work.

In the end you are all just asking for a separate class to highlight the fact the cars are powered by a 4g63. No pay out, no rules. Just a chance for the announcer to say, "Next up is the 4G63 Powered Class." That's about what it comes down to. It's not competitive racing, it's some guys who used the engines in other another chassis who want to drive down the track............

[GreenMachine]

I often call index class as just another type of bracket racing. A real bracket racer, who usually runs somewhere around index time, will clean up in such class.

But I doubt there will be any real bracket racers in this class… No purse and lack of prestige should keep fast cars in the quick 16 class, anyway.

You obviously do not want this class. So lets put it this way:

Will you add a class that people are willing to prepay for? Sort of how you did it last year with “stock turbo class”?

If yes, how many people would it take? What if a shop wants to sponsor such class?

Of all the people, I would think that you would understand the allure of this class! You were one of the first people to stick a 4G63 in RWD configuration!

Oh and personally, I couldn’t care less about being announced... It more about a place get together with other fellow 4G63 swap fans.

And if you need more space, why not combine the brackets into one class? I have a feeling that this year, fast cars will be in the Q16 class, 4G63 swap cars could be in their own class, who would want to be in bracket classes, anyway? Other random cars? Do they really need two classes for that? Or more importantly, do you really care about those remaining cars to give them TWO CLASSES?

[David Buschur]

Correction, I was THE FIRST to put a 4g63 into a RWD I do completely understand the idea behind doing it, being different, building something cool and of course wanting people to look at what you've done with your hard work.

The original DSM Powered Class was done because the rules for the DSM Shootout at the time left NO PLACE for the cars to run. They were not allowed in Bracket, they were not allowed in Stock Appearing or DSM Eliminator, there was no Time Trial Class. The class was put into effect then simply because the cars were not allowed to run in any other class. That is not the case now. Now the 4g63 powered cars have FOUR classes to run in.

It's not a matter of wanting the class or not wanting it, the class makes no sense.

Leon you are a very self centered guy. Who cares about the BRACKETS? Combine the TWO BRACKET classes so I can add a 4g63 Powered Class? Seriously? Your thought process on this subject is that narrow? Wow. You've got four places to run YOUR 4g63 powered car NOW but you want me to change two other classes to add a FIFTH place to run 4g63 powered cars? hahaha, Holy shit.

The entire DSM/EVO SHOOTOUT is the place to get together with fellow 4g63 swapped cars. One special lane for them to run in isn't going to change that.

I just thought of something, I'll admit I've been wrong through this thread and our PM's Leon. You guys do not have 4 classes to run these cars in, you have FIVE!!! There is also the Max Effort classes. If you count DOT and Slick tires Max Effort that makes 6 places to run them.

The answer is "no". The class makes no sense what-so-ever and that is why I am not going to consider adding it. It would be like adding a class for EVO's with stock rear view mirrors to run or DSM's with a valve cover painted pink.

[GreenMachine]

So... If you aren't even going to consider it, then why did you ask me start up this discussion in public?

And unlike "EVO with stock rear view mirror or DSM with pink valve cover", people are actually asking you to add this class. Are there enough of us to support this class? I am not sure, but I think that it warrants a discussion...

I am a snob when it comes to brackets? I will admit, I am... I really dislike them.

But seriously, now that you fixed the Quck 16 class, who is going to run in brackets? Gutted/N2O cars who couldn't qualify for Q16, 4g63 swap cars and misc cars?

However, you do bring up a good point about the "max effort" class. I always thought that it was only for DSMs and EVOs. Is that class open for any 4g63 powered cars?

[David Buschur]

I believe after your last response to me in the PM's I didn't respond back Leon, which meant I didn't need for you to bring it into the public. I think your last PM was kind of "snotty" and I didn't want to bother with this, to be honest.

Now that I FIXED the Q16 Class? Dude, the longer I know you the less I think I like you. I FIXED it the first time in response to other people like you who wanted a change in the damn program in the first place. Remember the other group of guys who needed the DSM/EVO Shootout FIXED and have some real big payouts for their top of the line Quick class cars? Remember that?! Remember the guys who said the Shootout was broken and needed fixed and wanted that big money buy in type racing started? Don't tell me about fixing it, I never wanted to do that in the first place, it was done in response to a few guys asking for something different......................that lasted what, one year? The Etown event this year sucked from all I can gather, all those hard core racers and big payouts went away after one single year and then we could get the DSM/EVO Shootout back to what it was suppose to be. Just remember that was started in response to what a few guys felt needed changed. It certainly wasn't what I wanted to do.

I think you missed my point about the mirrors and valve cover, well obviously you did but it is more comparable to a $250 buy in for a Quick class.

Also, for reference, while you have been ignoring the Bracket classes because you don't like them (and as I stated I don't really like Bracket Racing either) they have been consistently nice sized classes and a lot of people do like running in them. So asking me to get rid of or combining two classes with good turn outs is ridiculous.

Here are the rules for the Max Effort Class:

-The Max Effort class combines autocrossing and drag racing. The autocross portion of the competition is held on Saturday on the Summit/west side of the track. Details are at the top.
-You will need to read the classes listed BELOW and pick the class your car fits into. Put your class followed by the number on your tech card on your windshield.
-Your best 1/4 mile ET will be combined with your best autocross time at the end of the event for a total which will place you then determine the winner in each class.
-Any tire can be used BUT the tire you choose must be used for both the autocross and drag racing portions.
-Owner of the car must drive the car in both events, NO other drivers permitted.
-S, designates STREET CLASS and D, designates DRAG class.
-All DSM's, Ralliarts or other Mitsubishi powered shootout legal vehicles will compete in DS or DR.
-All EVO's will compete in ES or ER
-Tires and car type are all that will separate the classes.
-Street tires will be 140 and higher tread wear ratings
-Race tires will be 139 and lower tread wear ratings
-Any tires that do NOT have a visible tread wear rating on them will be considered a race tire.
-You will get 3 drag passes to post your best 1/4 mile ET to then be added to your best autocross time for scoring.

This class is now spread over two days too. Since we have the track on Saturday for both events we do here now, the autocross will be run on Saturday and then the drag portion will be run on Sunday. This adds two more drag lanes that have to be handled on Sunday, making it even harder to add yet another class, especially one that can't even be organized in some manner.

[mullen]

this got ugly for a minute..problem resolved, just run in the max effort class and enjoy the shootout