Cheating in DSE

[MARK@FORCEPOWER]

First of all I would like to make it very clear that we love coming to the "Shootout" and appreciate all the effort put in by everyone to make sure this event continues. We brought down five cars to race this year and approx. sixteen people came in our group to support us and enjoy the weekend.

However, we are getting a little tired of the cheating and non-compliance with the rules in the DSE class.

Copy of the rules:
DSM ELIMINATOR (DSE)
-Heads up class. Pro Tree. LANE 1
-Any 1990-1999 Talon, Eclipse, Laser or Galant VR4
-This is for any DSM that wants to run heads-up.
-NO nitrous. ANY DOT tire. This class is designed for street cars. Street cars have and are required to run, mirrors, headlights and wipers along with a full interior and full exhaust.
-Full interior includes EVERYTHING except for the trunk area as long as it is covered by the factory cover. If you have a roll bar/cage that makes it impossible to re-install the back seats or some interior trim pieces that is OK.
-All DSM Eliminator cars will qualify, time trial and race from lane #1
-On your windshield you will put in large print, DSE followed by the number from your tech card. This is your class/car number for the day.

Below is a few infractions that were noticed:
Cars with headlights removed.
Cars running slicks.
Cars with no wipers.
One car running with NITROUS. (found out at the end of the day).

Now I have heard all the arguments about how you don't want to spend a lot of time teching all the cars and that you expect the racers to report anything we see that doesn't comply. In response to this "we the racers" do not have the time or authority to run around the pits checking every car, no more than you do. We have a car to run which requires our full attention. It is very disappointing that people will blatantly cheat to try and get an edge on there competitors.

We reported one car early in the day that was running slicks, this in it's self was not easy due to the lack of people or official tech guys to report it to and consumed time that I didn't have. ? why not charge us ALL a few $'s more to get in and have some official form of tech.

Half of our class was eliminated by a car running NITROUS, that doesn't make us very happy and the rest of the field should be pissed as well.

We don't go to any event expecting to win, but we do go expecting to compete against cars that comply with the rules. What is the point of having a class with rules if no one is over-seeing it, we may as well ALL run in Q16, at least we know then that it is a free for all anything goes class.

I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears or I will be flamed out. This class is a competitive class with the majority of cars complying with the rules, but if something doesn't change to get rid of the "cheaters" I won't bother spending the huge amount of money and time to attend anymore.

[SloRice]

Its been said multiple times that the classes need to moderate themselves. There is too much going on and too many cars racing to do an official "tech" like you are asking.

I run in Evo Eliminator and its pretty much the same cars every year and I'm sure its probably the same way in your class. So it's not like you don't know who the other competitors are. Just go up to them and say something. If it becomes a bigger issue, grab other competitors in the class or someone from Buschur Racing to get it resolved. I know I personally walk down my lane and give a quick check of the big items like nitrous lines on the intake manifold and what tires everyone runs. Things like wipers and head lights are insignificant items in my opinion.

Making this kind of post is a "day late, dollar short" in my opinion.

[MikeRizz]

I heard about the NOS car as well, but never did see it myself. I was also in DSE. My car had the wipers removed, but I forgot that was a rule. I can easily put them back on. Of course in my case, it did not matter as I smoked the clutch on the first pass during time trials. I am still very surprised about the nitrous car! Was it the car that made it to the finals? I heard it was a 2g.

Its been said multiple times that the classes need to moderate themselves. There is too much going on and too many cars racing to do an official "tech" like you are asking.

.

Exactly. I would have walked up to him and said remove the bottle. The BR team simply does not have the time to go around and check.

[MARK@FORCEPOWER]

Its been said multiple times that the classes need to moderate themselves. There is too much going on and too many cars racing to do an official "tech" like you are asking.

I run in Evo Eliminator and its pretty much the same cars every year and I'm sure its probably the same way in your class. So it's not like you don't know who the other competitors are. Just go up to them and say something. If it becomes a bigger issue, grab other competitors in the class or someone from Buschur Racing to get it resolved. I know I personally walk down my lane and give a quick check of the big items like nitrous lines on the intake manifold and what tires everyone runs. Things like wipers and head lights are insignificant items in my opinion.

Making this kind of post is a "day late, dollar short" in my opinion.

Yes, things like wipers and lights are insignificant, but still rules of the class. NITROUS and SLICKS are not insignificant.

This is being brought up for future events, as stated I do not have the time to check out all our competitors cars.

[mullen]

id say next year we get volunteers to be techs just to look for things like you have mentioned above...

[BLACKBIRD]

I heard about the NOS car as well, but never did see it myself. I was also in DSE. I am still very surprised about the nitrous car! Was it the car that made it to the finals? I heard it was a 2g.

Gun metal coloured 2G. Took second only because he pulled a red light in the final. His name is obviously listed in the results.

id say next year we get volunteers to be techs just to look for things like you have mentioned above...

What a great idea.



I obviously raced in DSE on Sunday and I was put out by this nitrous car in the second round. I saw his tank in the back of his car but thought it was for his intercooler sprayer. I NOW know after seeing his name posted in the results and doing a quick search on it that he was running a direct port 100 shot.
Sure I could have screamed foul on the day but I didn't have time for that. We're suppose to have cars in the lanes and could be sent at any minute. I saw 4 cars outside of the rules that day to be honest. What was I suppose to do? Im not there to screen cars, im there to race.
It's left a bad taste in my mouth that we hauled a rule compliant car 6 hours only to be knocked out by a guy running nitrous. Rules are rules but that's a pretty BIG one to break.
By the way.....if the rest of the rules are so petty, take them out.

[David Buschur]

This is not falling on deaf ears and I see you took the time to quote the rules for the class. Also listed in the rules for the event where you found that, is this:

"Tech for each class is done by your peers in your class. If you are found to be illegal for a class before the first round you can move to another class you fit into. If you are found to be illegal during eliminations you will be disqualified. READ THE RULES."

I am not doing tech, the track is not doing tech, the event is too large to jam into one day and get all that done. I've been involved in organized drag racing and I've been involved in racing such as the shootout. I can tell you that the shootout type atmosphere is 100% more enjoyable. All you needed to do is find the car in question, report him to the tech guy or someone at Buschur Racing and we will GLADLY THROUGH THE CHEATER OUT OF THE RACE COMPLETELY WITHOUT A REFUND.

As you all know I make the classes time trial and race from the same lane all day. This is so the cars can be found and peer tech'd. It's not hard to walk down the lane your class is in and take a look around at the cars.

One of the guys we help out at our shop actually turned in another guy we help out from our shop. These two guys know each other. It didn't go over very well BUT when it was reported, I had the guy that was running an illegal tire move to another class. Simple.

If you found him to be illegal and didn't report it..............that is on you, sorry.

[Spoolin0nYou]

Whenever there's track cleanup or a breakage...you have plenty of time to walk your lane. Come on, they're DSM's and Evo's. They always break!

[JimmyBlueTSI]

I certainly agree Mark. It wasn't until after the event that we started hearing of a 2G running NOS in the DSE class. If it were up to me, I would ban them from next year's Shootout. Literally ban them. Unless they could flat out convince me they were unaware of the rule which would be awfully hard to believe. What slicks was someone running? Are you sure they weren't cheaters, which are DOT approved and legal?

[BLACKBIRD]

This is not falling on deaf ears and I see you took the time to quote the rules for the class. Also listed in the rules for the event where you found that, is this:

"Tech for each class is done by your peers in your class. If you are found to be illegal for a class before the first round you can move to another class you fit into. If you are found to be illegal during eliminations you will be disqualified. READ THE RULES."

I am not doing tech, the track is not doing tech, the event is too large to jam into one day and get all that done. I've been involved in organized drag racing and I've been involved in racing such as the shootout. I can tell you that the shootout type atmosphere is 100% more enjoyable. All you needed to do is find the car in question, report him to the tech guy or someone at Buschur Racing and we will GLADLY THROUGH THE CHEATER OUT OF THE RACE COMPLETELY WITHOUT A REFUND.

As you all know I make the classes time trial and race from the same lane all day. This is so the cars can be found and peer tech'd. It's not hard to walk down the lane your class is in and take a look around at the cars.

One of the guys we help out at our shop actually turned in another guy we help out from our shop. These two guys know each other. It didn't go over very well BUT when it was reported, I had the guy that was running an illegal tire move to another class. Simple.

If you found him to be illegal and didn't report it..............that is on you, sorry.

I appreciate the reply.
If you aren't doing tech and the track isn't doing tech, then who's the "tech guy" you referred to?

Bottom line....as a racer in the event, I wish this wasn't a concern for the competitors. If I was to report every car blatantly outside the rules this year in my class, I would have done more of that than actual racing.
I don't come to the Shootout to screen cars and report people, I come to compete and enjoy the weekend.
I've raced DSE for 3 years straight now and I've never seen it this bad. This also answers "Slowrice" a few posts back.....DSE sees 90% different cars every year. In about a 16 car field this year I believe, I reconized 2 cars from previous years I've attended. And one of those cars is a customer of ours.

If future competitors read this......
Get your shit together and read the rules for the classes. They aren't that complex. Bring a rule compliant car!!! We make sure our competing car meets the rules, why can't you?

For the record, the nitrous car in question here didn't open his hood all day. I believe he knew what he was doing. If that's how you need to play, that's too bad. It's also too bad that he eliminated 3-4 cars probably complying with the rules along the way. I guess karma caught up with you in the final though.

[MARK@FORCEPOWER]

This is not falling on deaf ears and I see you took the time to quote the rules for the class. Also listed in the rules for the event where you found that, is this:

"Tech for each class is done by your peers in your class. If you are found to be illegal for a class before the first round you can move to another class you fit into. If you are found to be illegal during eliminations you will be disqualified. READ THE RULES."

I am not doing tech, the track is not doing tech, the event is too large to jam into one day and get all that done. I've been involved in organized drag racing and I've been involved in racing such as the shootout. I can tell you that the shootout type atmosphere is 100% more enjoyable. All you needed to do is find the car in question, report him to the tech guy or someone at Buschur Racing and we will GLADLY THROUGH THE CHEATER OUT OF THE RACE COMPLETELY WITHOUT A REFUND.

As you all know I make the classes time trial and race from the same lane all day. This is so the cars can be found and peer tech'd. It's not hard to walk down the lane your class is in and take a look around at the cars.

One of the guys we help out at our shop actually turned in another guy we help out from our shop. These two guys know each other. It didn't go over very well BUT when it was reported, I had the guy that was running an illegal tire move to another class. Simple.

If you found him to be illegal and didn't report it..............that is on you, sorry.

I've been coming to the Shootout long enough to know how it works. I had the one car removed for the wrong tires, this took approx. half an hour of my time to chase down the right people to get it done. Now if there are five cars cheating in our class that means 2 1/2 hours of my day is spent getting illegal cars booted (coool). For your system to work we need an identifiable rep/tech guy in the lanes all day. He doesn't have to check all cars, but someone should be in the lanes for the racers to go to. If our lane is being run we have to race, we can't hold the event up while we run around the pits looking for some unknown official. Plus, with your existing system there is no going back if we find we have been beat by an illegal car after we race (which was the case this year).

With the event being as big as it is, is the exact reason why we need someone official in the lanes. We "the racers" have no authority to demand someone open there hood if they don't want to.

[farook]

That sucks to hear but if its the car I was thinking of, I do recall walking by and seeing the giant bottle basically in plain site in the back window. I never thought twice of it, nor did I really care because I was in DST but I would've thought at least 1 person in that class should've seen that as easy as it was to spot. I would think, as dumb as it sounds, that he had no idea of the nitrous rule or I'm sure it wouldn't have been hanging out in such plain view like that. I'm not defending the guy I would be pissed too, just sayin..

[Jrod@Buschur]

It wasn't until after the event that we started hearing of a 2G running NOS in the DSE class.

[SloRice]

^^^ I LOL'd

[David Buschur]

The tech guy is the guy putting the numbers on the windows at the rear of staging.

Do you guys really think that having 200+ cars sit in a line for tech to have the car each gone over is going to be better/more enjoyable than simply looking over 10 cars you are racing against for an obvoius rule infraction and reporting them? I do not. I've been in both situations and would rather peer tech. If you want a hood opened ask and they have to open it, that's why it's peer tech.

On the other hand, while mirrors are required, I don't think mirrors missing from a car (I chose mirrors just for the hell of it) are going to be the difference between 1st and last place. The idea is "Going fast with class" for most of the classes. I would not personally report a car for missing mirrors if it was his only infraction. Yes, it is illegal, no I wouldn't bother. Tires, nitrous etc., hell yes, it needs reported and dealt with.

The rules. For those of you that follow the website and read the rules, THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. The fact is most do not. I print a rule sheet every year at the gate, all day long we answer questions, "What class do I go in? What time does it start? What time is qualifying?" It annoys the hell out of me.

Some of these guys cheat, some of them are just too stupid or lazy to read.

[David Buschur]

BTW, did the guy with the nitrous place in the class? If so I am going to remove him from the winners list, which is all I can do at this point. I'm also going to label him as a cheater on the list.

[BLACKBIRD]

The tech guy is the guy putting the numbers on the windows at the rear of staging.

Do you guys really think that having 200+ cars sit in a line for tech to have the car each gone over is going to be better/more enjoyable than simply looking over 10 cars you are racing against for an obvoius rule infraction and reporting them? I do not. I've been in both situations and would rather peer tech. If you want a hood opened ask and they have to open it, that's why it's peer tech.

On the other hand, while mirrors are required, I don't think mirrors missing from a car (I chose mirrors just for the hell of it) are going to be the difference between 1st and last place. The idea is "Going fast with class" for most of the classes. I would not personally report a car for missing mirrors if it was his only infraction. Yes, it is illegal, no I wouldn't bother. Tires, nitrous etc., hell yes, it needs reported and dealt with.

The rules. For those of you that follow the website and read the rules, THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. The fact is most do not. I print a rule sheet every year at the gate, all day long we answer questions, "What class do I go in? What time does it start? What time is qualifying?" It annoys the hell out of me.

Some of these guys cheat, some of them are just too stupid or lazy to read.

Just to straighten this up, we aren't asking for full tech of every competing car. Maybe just 1 easily recognizable authority figure in the lanes so racers that are suppose to be in the lanes all day and ready to go can find that person easily.
The guy writing the numbers on the windows has no idea about the classes. So maybe someone from Buschurs could do it.
Give that person the same rule sheet that you hand out at the gate, put them in a big bright shirt at the front of the lanes and that's who we go to if there is an issue. Just an idea.

I agree with you about some things like mirrors for example. I don't care about that stuff. But YOU did put them in the rules as well Dave. So are the rest of the rules, rules?
In my first round, I raced a guy missing a headlight. Your rules state headlights. I didn't say anything and beat him. I know having a headlight out does nothing but at the end of the day, its still a rule.
So where do we start and stop?
Obviously a car running nitrous in DSE is probably the BIGGEST advantage one could have.

BTW, did the guy with the nitrous place in the class? If so I am going to remove him from the winners list, which is all I can do at this point. I'm also going to label him as a cheater on the list.

As I said in post #6 of this thread.
- Gun metal coloured 2G. Took second place only because he pulled a red light in the final. His name is obviously listed in the results.

[David Buschur]

The tech guy who was putting numbers on the car doesn't know the rules, correct. He does have a tech sheet though for classing the cars as needed. Anyone at our trailer can also handle the situation. I am NOT passing the buck, I am saying the rules state "peer tech", if it's not reported we can't fix it.

The rules are the rules, END OF STORY. Yes, someone without mirrors could and would be disqualified if it is in the rules. I was simply saying I would not personally peer tech a guy and have him disqualified for mirrors. If I, David Buschur and the promoter/organizer/rule maker, saw someone missing the mirrors I would throw him out.

For example. You all know Kevin Lawson, drives my RS for me, GREAT personal friend. He was wearing shorts, the rules state that long pants and long sleeve shirts must be worn. I asked him to get some pants to wear and he put on his way-to-thick race pants for the race. Best friend or not, he's not exempt from what I wrote for rules.

So, next year, report the guys who don't fit the rules. As the event gets closer next year remind me and maybe what we can do is get ALL the cars in the lanes before the first round and take 15 minutes to allow a walk through, hoods open, peer tech. That's what they do at the Buick races.

Onto the "cheater". I just called Marcus and spoke to him. He assured me he knew the rules but was NOT injecting nitrous into the engine, only on the intercooler sprayer, which I do remember seeing he had on the car. He is going to take a picture, with todays newspaper in it for a date and show the nitrous doesn't go into the engine. When I get that picture I will post it. The rules do state NO NITROUS on the car, but because it wasn't reported and him giving me his word it was not being sprayed in the engine I am not going to take him down as the runner up and label him a cheater. Does this seem reasonable?

[MARK@FORCEPOWER]

The walk through with the hood up sounds good Dave, better than what we have at present and we do appreciate your effort in regards to this.

Regarding Marcus, with all due respect I don't care what you do with him. Your asking someone that cheated "whether they cheated" three days later. This thread was NEVER about getting the results of Sunday changed, it is about making some small changes to avoid this situation in the future.

[David Buschur]

I guess I like to assume someone will atleast tell the truth when confronted. I understand what the thread was for but at this point in time all I can do is change the results.

To me this thread is about someone complaining they didn't peer tech three days later! ROFL