Idea for a shootout class. Small frame turbo's.

[sbstar]

Those of us 14b guys over on Tuners have been discussing a lot of things reguarding how to make a 14b setup faster. Many of you know Joe Bucci holds the overall 14b turbo record with a 10.8 w/out nitrous and 10.6 w/nitrous. We began discussing the idea of a 14b class held at the shootout, or even a small frame turbo (ie. 14b or 16g, basically TDO5H turbo's of any size, color, or orientation). Essentially this would be very much like the old Stock Appearing class, but without the hassle of "stock appearing". Our/my basic idea would be that the rules be very simple, TDO5H housing turbo's only, all other mods are free game. Meaning gutting would allowed, nitrous allowed, slicks/drag radials, external or internal wastegates, etc... Basically any configuration you could come up with, utilizing a TDO5H turbo.

Just throwing it out there...Seeing if anyone else would be interested. I think for many of us small turbo people we really don't fit in a "good" class. Many of us are trying to go as quick as possible meaning that stock appearing and even DSM eliminator are out of the question due to not having a full interior, and we certainly aren't fast enough for the Q16, and Bracket is downright boring (forgive me for those of you who like it). I know you (meaning Dave B.) haven't always been a fan of "tin can racing" but I think this class would actually net a good turnout, and would perhaps even need some qualifying to keep a limited number of cars so it wouldn't be overrun!

Anyone else agree? What do you think Dave?

[David Buschur]

I've beat my head against the wall the last few years with the stock appearing class. Truth of the matter is the stock appearing class was FAR from stock appearing. FMIC's, headers, speed density etc. The class basically required you had a stock appearing turbo, interior and exhaust. The class turn out sucked, it was miserable and after all the bitching and begging to keep it, it still did not grow. I honestly don't think that allowing "tin cans" (as you said) to be brought in to run stock appearing turbo's is going to make for a large class either.

Bracket racing isn't my thing either, I've done it but it doesn't thrill me. Fact is though, you can bring any car in any configuration, run it balls out every pass and race in Bracket class.

I obviously want as many racers at the event as we can get. I don't want to discourage anyone from running but the stock appearing DSM type class is just dead and has been for the last few years.

I need you guys to look at it from a promoters stand point. In order to keep the payouts as good as we can and keep the classes at a reasonable level, if a particular class isn't popular it just makes no sense to keep it. For example, last years EVOX class that had 1 car in it. The EVOX class is also gone along with FWD.

I hope you can understand and hope you still come down to race.

I don't know if you are building a drag only car but if not, you should look at the classes we are adding this year that requires autocrossing and drag racing, a super lightweight DSM would be bad ass for that class.

[talontsi92]

I think that the DSA class died because of the lack of good "stock appearing" turbos out there. A 14b will never be a stock evo turbo, or a red or anything of that nature, its just not in the cards. The DSM guys just go to bigger framed turbos for the performance increase over a 14b/16g style turbo. I do like the idea of the HTA68 for a DSM, that would make a badass sleeper IMHO, but still, with HTA technology it still is rated at ~47 lb/min according to FP.

[sbstar]

I care to disagree a little bit. I think the problem with the stock appearing class was more so that no one could fit the rules properly. People either don't have a full interior, are running an AFPR, some ss fuel line, etc. I know a few people who couldn't do stock appearing due to that little crap. There is quite a following in the fast 14b and 16g crowd. But as you said, if the interest isn't there, it won't pan out I suppose.

[talontsi92]

Oh believe me, I was really hoping for a DSA class this year, as I am a 14b guy, and i fit perfectly within last years regulations, although i have a FMIC and a tubular o2 which were allowed last year. My car will probably never be competitive in DSE, and will probably be regulated to running in the bracket classes from this day forward, unless David feels like giving me a bunch of free parts... which... well, that will probably never happen LOL.\

RIP, DSA class LOL

[David Buschur]

I care to disagree a little bit. I think the problem with the stock appearing class was more so that no one could fit the rules properly. People either don't have a full interior, are running an AFPR, some ss fuel line, etc. I know a few people who couldn't do stock appearing due to that little crap. There is quite a following in the fast 14b and 16g crowd. But as you said, if the interest isn't there, it won't pan out I suppose.

You have a good list of stuff in your reply to me, you're right NONE of that stuff belongs in a Stock Appearing class, along with that, speed density, external wastegates, FMIC's, 02 dump housing..........none of it belongs in Stock Appearing BUT because each year I tried to save the class someone else bitched about not allowing XXX mod or XYZ mod I kept adding to the crap the cars could have to try to save the class. After last year it is quite obvious there just are not enough DSM's worthy of being called stock appearing anymore. The bottom line is most of them have been ruined and trashed with poor decisions and poor mod choices, it's sad really because they were great cars.

This year you guys are trying to convince me that allowing a stock appearing turbo class with anything goes in it will work. I can tell you, it won't. Tell you what, prove me wrong, bring out 50 DSM's for the class and then we can put something together. I went down this road with the FWD DSM's too, the class just kept shrinking and every year I'd listen and hold off for another year to cancel it. The car, thankfully, kept coming but now run in Bracket.

I love seeing fast cars, any fast cars, I obviously want to do all I can to get as many as possible to the shootout but there comes a time when running the class, making the trophies, tieing up the lane and paying out good money for 3 racers is a rediculous waste of resources.

I just can't do it unless I see an bunch of cars show up to show me there is enough interest for their own seperate class.

I really do my best to listen and make changes with the times for the shootout.

[talontsi92]

I don't blame you David. If the entry fee's don't cover the payout there simply is not a point in making the class exist anymore. Its not that the goal to make money hand over fist I am sure, but you don't want to lose a bunch of money either.

[Nate Crisman]

Dave,

Would you or NRP be open to the possiblity of just running this as an exhibition class? No prize, no payout, no trophy. Most of us just want to be able to run against the other little turbo cars and have the announcer let the crowd know "these cars are all on 14b/16g".

Seems there is more activity this year and a few cars trying to get the 14b record away from Bucci, myself included.

[sbstar]

Dave,

Would you or NRP be open to the possiblity of just running this as an exhibition class? No prize, no payout, no trophy. Most of us just want to be able to run against the other little turbo cars and have the announcer let the crowd know "these cars are all on 14b/16g".

Seems there is more activity this year and a few cars trying to get the 14b record away from Bucci, myself included.

Exactly, if you look at just the thread over on Tuners alone for 14b interest there are at least 10 guys talking about building "fast" 14b cars for this coming season. Add that to the long list of 16g contenders you see threads from every year and you've got yourself a pretty good turnout if they show up. As Nate said, I don't really think we need a prize, I'm more interested in letting people see how fast these cars can go on small setups. We could run during the down time between the race categories for all I care, provided we were allowed to line up together while everyone else was T&T'ing and the announcer could see we were a part of the group. That would keep it from having to be such a big class. I know the organization is still there a bit, but overall I'm trying to make it simple for ya haha.

[Spoolin0nYou]

Exactly, if you look at just the thread over on Tuners alone for 14b interest there are at least 10 guys talking about building "fast" 14b cars for this coming season.

That's the problem. They're talking, not building. The stock appearing is dead. There won't be a small frame turbo class. Not enough interest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm running E3 16g that I purchased from Buschur...but I'm not interested in creating a small class for it.

[David Buschur]

Doing what you are asking with the announcing and such requires the class to have it's own lane and organization, it's the same as having a class for them. Remember, there is a time trial only class to than anyone can run in with any car. To me that seems stupid, why not just put the car in a Bracket class run it balls out and have a chance of winning some money. Then if you are eliminated you can still drop over to the Time Trial class and run some more times.

At the bottom of each tech car is a large box to write something in for the announcer, they LOVE it when this is done because it gives them something to say. So you guys can all write the details in that box and I'm sure the announcer will use it as he is announcing the cars. I can even make sure to point it out to them so it does get announced.

To me though, running Bracket and having a chance to win some money makes the most sense while you are out pounding on the car for the record. Don't you think?

[Gooberlog]

I can understand this issue from both ends. There is a lot of interest in a TDO5H turbo class, but come race day a lot of the dsm's don't seem to make it. Back in '04 i was really pumped to compete in the stock appearing class. The day before i was about to hit the road for Ohio, my truck got impounded for being illegally parked so I canceled the trip. I later found out that the 1st place car in that class ran high 12's. At that time my car was running consistent 12.4's on a 14b and a side mount intercooler.
I still have not made it out since then to race, but if there were class for it in 2010 my 14b car (which is running and driving by the way) would be loaded on the trailer and the Duramax would be fired up.
It sounds like there are a lot of contenders for 2010 on dsmtuners that are looking to get a new personal best like myself, and many who are fighting for the top spot to beat Bucci's 10.8 no Nitrous time. I think there are a lot more people who would want to run this class if there were one and if they had plenty of time, but i see Dave's points. The whole dsm scene is kinda dying away. Buschar, Extreme, MachV and all of the old "DSM performance shops" have all gotten more in to racing EVO's and us dsm guys are still lucky they offer parts for our archaic 1G's.

[Admin]

The track prep at the DSM/EVO Shootout, every year, is the best you are going to find. David pays the track extra and tells them he wants to see cars breaking parts, if they aren't the track isn't sticky enough! So if you guys are going for a record the best chance at getting it is on a well prepped track and setting it in front of another couple thousand Mitsubishi/DSM/EVO fans is a hell of a good place to do it.

[sbstar]

The track prep at the DSM/EVO Shootout, every year, is the best you are going to find. David pays the track extra and tells them he wants to see cars breaking parts, if they aren't the track isn't sticky enough! So if you guys are going for a record the best chance at getting it is on a well prepped track and setting it in front of another couple thousand Mitsubishi/DSM/EVO fans is a hell of a good place to do it.

Class or no class I'll be looking for a PB during the test-n-tune portions. I'll probably enter a bracket class or something and get knocked out in the first round then just run for fun a couple times. Although the wifey will be pretty mad if I break something that far from home.

[Carfanatic_88]

It does suck to see the class go away, I ran in it for the past 2 yrs. For the past 2yrs that i came to run, the field shrank each year.
My car will be competing next year, if that means i need to run it in the eliminator class. Then so be it. If i go out early, then i will go to time trials.
I can understand Daves point on the amount of time it takes to set up a class and to have ppl running it. Theres does seem to be alot more interest in the class year, but yet last year there seemed to be some interest and there was no extra turnout. Its to bad, but what can ya do...

[talontsi92]

Hey David, just throwing out ideas here and seeing if one sticks. I remember a few years ago you gave the FWD class one last shot by allowing people to prepay for their spot in the class. Any chance that you would consider this class if we had say 10-15 people prepay for the class, no refunds, no returns if you can't make it. It probably sounds like the same thing the fwd guys said, but I personally feel that this would have a bigger turnout than FWD ever would. You are right the DSA class is dead, but a stock framed turbo class with unlimited mods might be more appealing. I know that my basic setup doesn't look stock, but i have a stock turbo, so my car will never be competitive with 99% of eliminator cars.

I would definitely be willing to prepay, and if these other guys are that serious about this class too, they should be willing too.

[pvolk]

I've beat my head against the wall the last few years with the stock appearing class. Truth of the matter is the stock appearing class was FAR from stock appearing. FMIC's, headers, speed density etc. The class basically required you had a stock appearing turbo, interior and exhaust. The class turn out sucked, it was miserable and after all the bitching and begging to keep it, it still did not grow. I honestly don't think that allowing "tin cans" (as you said) to be brought in to run stock appearing turbo's is going to make for a large class either.

I obviously want as many racers at the event as we can get. I don't want to discourage anyone from running but the stock appearing DSM type class is just dead and has been for the last few years.

I need you guys to look at it from a promoters stand point. In order to keep the payouts as good as we can and keep the classes at a reasonable level, if a particular class isn't popular it just makes no sense to keep it. For example, last years EVOX class that had 1 car in it. The EVOX class is also gone along with FWD.

I hope you can understand and hope you still come down to race.

The fact that the class has died down may be due to the fact that this platform is being modified differently than it was a decade ago, and the rules of the class just don't allow as many people to take advantage and compete in it. Lots of guys are going really fast on stock appearing turbos these days, while the rest of the car is not stock appearing at all. The previous rules for the DSA class have prohibited many of these up and coming cars from competing in that class, and many of them aren't going to stand a chance running against the guys in the DSE class either. So what does this mean? It means those guys aren't going to race at all, and I'm sure we both agree that that's not what we want to see.

So, instead of eliminating the class and replacing it with nothing, maybe it would benefit everybody if it were simply modified? Change the rules to allow more, yet continue to limit it to running a stock appearing turbo.

I can personally say that some of the best races I've seen at the Shootout were from the stock appearing class. Many of us enjoyed that class, and the fact that the participation has died down doesn't necessarily mean that we've lost interest with it - it just signifies that the class doesn't fit many of our stock-turbo DSMs these days.

In a nutshell, we aren't asking that stock appearing come back. We're asking that it be modified to allow for greater competition of stock-appearing turbo cars. Open it up to what the people are building these days. What do you think, Dave?

[Jim H.]

I also would like to see a stock appearing turbo class remain. I think PVolk said it the best. We don't want the stock appearing class with all the guidelines back, we want a simple stock appearing turbo class with one rule. The turbo must appear to be stock. Maybe the prepay would be the best idea to keep the class alive. Whatever happens, it won't stop me from coming to the Shootout. Just wanted to show more support for this idea.

[sbstar]

Exactly! ^ The stock appearing class is/was my favorite class to watch every year next to the Q16, even with the diminishing number of participants.

[talontsi92]

Exactly! ^ The stock appearing class is/was my favorite class to watch every year next to the Q16, even with the diminishing number of participants.

This was mine as well, simply because that is the kind of DSM i have.....simplistic. No huge dollar mods, budget builds, and still tons of fun.