Buschur Racing dyno thread.....new developments.

[David Buschur]

I am going to use this thread to do some posting over the next few weeks. So keep checking back here and on our own website for actual dyno sheets and such to get updated.

Here's what's going on in our world.

We dyno'd our '03 EVO when it was brand new, think 400 and some miles on it. Car was bone stock, 2wd dynojet. The car made 256 whp stock. Everyone cried and moaned that those numbers were too high, dynojets lie, we used a 2wd etc., etc.

The point of this topic is not to brag how much power we are making or going to make. The point is to take another bone stock EVO, our new RS, start over again and dyno every single part we make.

Today we started out with the car, bone stock as I said. Converted to 2wd on our 2wd dynojet. (DO NOT ASK WHAT TYPE OF DYNO OR EVEN DISCUSS 2WD VS. AWD DYNOS IN THIS THREAD PLEASE!!! IT IS POINTLESS, WE ARE TALKING BASELINES AND GAINS ONLY)

Bone stock the very first pass with the engine cold the car made 207 whp. Yes, that's right, 207 whp. I was like WTF?! So I ran it again and it jumped into the 220's and then once it was at full operating tempurature it leveled off for two runs at 237 whp. WOW! That's down 19 whp from our other EVO both bone stock. Now we are getting somewhere on all the past arguement. Tempuratures in the dyno room are close enough to last year that that is not it, the difference is the stinking cars. Both had 94 octane in them from this same local Sunoco station too. The difference is the CAR. Also, I can see how some other shops are showing some crazy gains, had I wanted to be dishonest here I would have used the 207 or even the 220 whp pulls the car did before it was warmed up. Not doing that, that's not how we play here.

First modification was the BR air filter kit. Just filter, no MAS pipe. Car gained as much as 7 whp. The dyno charts are very rough as you will see on our site when we post them. The gains were across the entire range on and off through the roughness. $80.

Next modification was the boost control and a boost gauge. Turned it up to 20 psi, no fuel management, just turned up the boost. HP was as high as 273 whp BUT the boost was way to high and it did this while I was getting it set. With the boost set stable to 20 psi it was 252 whp. 15 WHP gain here. I was expecting more to be honest. Gauge and pod is $85, boost controller is $75.

Next mod is our 2.5" axle back muffler. This is just the muffler section, stock downpipe, cat and cat back pipe in place. I was SHOCKED at this one. Another 15 whp gain. I am still shocked, another $260 spent. This is where the car is right now. Total retail cost is at this point is $500. That's $16.66 per horsepower gained. Not to freaking shabby.

I am going back out to add the 2.5" downpipe to the system. Hoping to get it dyno'd today. I'm pretty excited about all this. The downpipe is going to retain the stock cat, catback pipe and use the axle back muffler. What I am doing is working towards our complete Economy Stage Package, which retails for $995 and includes the above plus an AFC or a reflash.

Good things to come, stand by....

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

Update.

Just put the Super AFC on the car. Last HP, as I wrote above was 270. I went ahead and pulled up the torque graphs today too, I hadn't looked at them until now.

Stock the car put down 237 whp and 250 ft lbs of torque.

After the boost controller, 2.5" downpipe, axleback and the filter kit it put down 270 whp and 271 ft lbs of torque.

I added the AFC today and the HP jumped to 295 whp with 272 ft lbs of torque.

The charts and such will be getting added to our site as I said, maybe this weekend.

This completes the Economy Stage. Package sells for $995. It added almost exactly 60 whp to the car. Went from 237 to 295. That is a pretty substantial gain. That's $16.58 per horsepower.

The car is running on straight 94 octane, that is all that has ever been in the tank. The car is also still running the stock untouched catalytic converter and catback pipe. It is extremely quiet. This package would still be able to pass emmisions in anywhere.

I'm pleased as this shows how far off our original Stg 1 numbers are that are on our site now.

I will be testing a BOV change and the offroad pipe on this same kit this afternoon, I would really like to see the car break 300 whp and be able to keep the price down.

Al will be coming here in a couple weeks to do some flashes for all of the staged upgrades again. I really believe we can break the 300 whp barrier with this package and flash, even with the stock cat in place.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

Man, what a headache this testing is getting to be. Tested two more parts. I am shocked at what I am finding this time around.

First off let me say that running this car on the dyno getting two runs within 5 whp of each other is what I would consider pretty consistent and that is when I figure the results are there or they aren't.

I also said I will pick the highest HP of the two runs and post them. When I am doing tuning and such as I just did with the AFC then it may take 10 runs to get where you want to be.

I ended up having to go back and look at all the last 20 runs or so I did to figure out what the hell was going on.

So here is where the car is. Looks like real world results for this package (Economy Package) is going to come in at 290-295. Best run I saw was the 295 whp. That was the absolute best though. Going back and picking a more typical run was in the high 285-290. This is where I actually left the AFC settings at which were in the 11.5:1 range.

I then added the Forged BOV to see if the boost would stabilize some, didn't make much of a difference in boost and HP was up maybe 1-2 whp.

I then put the offroad pipe in and was expecting a ton. Well guess what folks?! The gain isn't worth pulling the factory cat out for and risking running without it. From what I can tell by laying quite a few runs over each other you might be talking about, at best, and only in parts of the runs 7 whp. Peak power was completely unchanged. Very-very good stock cat on the car from what this is telling me.

So the straight scoop is the Economy Stage (I don't like that wording now that I keep typing it, let's call it STAGE 0 from now on. The way the parts are listed on the site is the way I am going to keep it. Nothing additional is going to be added to that kit as it is just taking you guys for a ride at this WHP level.

I have been shocked at not picking up power from the BOV or the offroad pipe.

I am however happy to offer a kit that gains 60 whp for the $995 and still remains emmision legal and is as quiet as stock.

I would have to guess this package should drop an EVO into 12's with little problem. I am also extremely anxious to see what the flash does for it. Would really like to see the torque come up, which it will, and maybe even break that 300 whp mark on this kit.

I am leaving the car the way it is for the flash to be done in the next few weeks. In the meantime I am going to throw the AEM EMS on it and see what I can do with the HP and also may throw the MAS pipe and upper i/c pipe on it. Those just may prove to make some decent HP numbers much earlier in the game than I have put them on the upgrade list.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

You know, sometimes I get my best ideas at night. This really sucks for me as I don't usually sleep well. As a side note I have taken up drinking some wine before I go to bed and this seems to help

So, last night I am laying in bed sleeping well. Dreaming of the dyno, really, this is how my messed up brain works. Then all of a sudden, since I am asleep and not being bothered by 10 people at once, I get this freaking thought. Why the hell did the car pick up 15 whp with an axle back and not gain anything from the cat and downpipe?! Then my mind, while talking to itself in this dream answers back, "The cat back pipe dumbass." At this point I wake up and walk to the kitchen to get a note pad. Write myself a note, "Get rid of the catback pipe with the two restrictive resonators in it dumbass."

I spend tons of time talking about how to build a correct exhaust for a car. Straight through, no resonators, no baffles, always go from a smaller tube to a larger, never the other way. Here I am picking up great gains with an axle back and non with something in front of it. The cat back pipe while not too bad (I thought) still has only 2.25" diameter and also has two resonators in it which is what keeps it quiet.

Monday morning I am going to drop the exhaust at the back of the offroad pipe for another dyno run on the AFC. I think the problem with no additional power being made is from the catback pipe.

Now I won't be able to sleep tonight, I have to know......

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

Well, the results were amazing. The car at the top end went from 279 whp to 314 whp, thats a 35 whp gain. The restriction was in the catback pipe with the two resonators, just as I thought.

I am not going to bother building a 2.5" catback pipe. I feel as though the Stage 0 is priced right at $995. The axle back muffler is $260 and gained 15 whp. Building a complete 2.5" catback system isn't going to be much cheaper than our 3" catback which is $450. I think anyone that needs to upgrade from Stage 0 will be better off just running the 3" catback, even if it is in conjunction with the 2.5" downpipe/offroad pipe they got in Stage 0.

I am going to run the car again in a few minutes with the 3" catback bolted to the 2.5" downpipe/offroad pipe and then bolt the stock cat and then the stock downpipe back on the car. I will be able to tell how much the car looses by doing this and see what the gains would be.

Pretty cool stuff. This is what the dyno is good for.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

Moving right along here, real time data

Put a 3" catback on the car. It is super ass cold in the dyno bay and the car is hitting fuel cut on the way up at about 4,000 rpm. So when I finally post the dyno sheets for all this there is going to be a dip in them....data is still good, just explaining what is going on.

With the 3" catback bolted to the 2.5" downpipe and 2.5" offroad pipe the midrange is better in quite a few spots by 10 whp or so than with a completely open exhaust right off the offroad pipe. The peak HP happens sooner with the catback exhaust on the car and came in at 313 whp, compared to 314.4 whp with the open exhaust.

We are bolting the stock cat back in place right now and will have more results shortly.

This testing seems so elementary compared to all the high tech things we could be doing. It is just so we can offer hard data and possibly improve the packages we are offering compared to what we collected for data with the old prototype pieces thrown on the car 2 years ago.

I would like to see where we can take this Stage 0 in emmission legal form.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

Another test done.

Now the car has the stock cat on it, 2.5" downpipe and a 3" catback with the remainder of Stage 0 on it. The car made 293 whp like this. So the cat was a restriction and much more of one than I thought it would be.

Funny that removing it with the restrictive factory catback pipe made little difference, actually it's not funny as I am constantly preaching to people that you HAVE TO DO MODIFICATIONS IN THE CORRECT ORDER! This is the great proof needed for what I babble about.

Back to the test. Run right before this one had a 2.5" downpipe, 2.5" offroad pipe and our 3" cat back. Car made 313 whp. Put the factory cat back in place and the horsepower dropped to 292, a 21 whp difference.

For comparison. 2.5" downpipe, stock cat, stock catback pipe with the 2.5" axle back muffler the car made 289.3.

Looking at it this way you can see why you always start in the rear of the car and work towards the engine when doing exhaust one piece at a time.

We are bolting on the stock downpipe now with the stock cat and we'll see if the power is effected.

After that we bolt the full 3" downpipe, offroad pipe and catback on the car. This will give us a full turbo back whp gain number and we can do some comparisons between spool up, torque and HP using the 2.5" downpipe vs. the 3".

I love this stuff.

David Buschur

[JustDSM]

I love this stuff.

David Buschur

..And so do we!

[Zeus]

Thanks David... from all of us.

[TC4G63]

Keep it coming, I can't wait to see the full numbers (including torque) on the whole 3" turbo back exhaust!

[hechtrod]

David,
I'm sure you work "hard" and long, but being someone not in the aftermarket car biz, you have the coolest job ever working on the coolest car! Anyway...

256whp = '03 std EVO
237whp = '05? RS

What could be the difference in whp since you explained the similarities (which are, same gas, same temp, same dyno)? Could the difference be more miles on the '03 EVO and the front LSD diff <assuming the 2wheels you dyno with are the front wheels> of the RS? Anyway, trying to analyze along side you (ok, way behind you, in your EVO dust )

I agree, Stage 0 sounds cooler.

Ax back, 2.5" downpipe, filter, mbc and AFC = $1000 = 295whp (+60whp)
and smog legal?! Whoa!

Keep it up! Man I hate my Civic!

[David Buschur]

I'm at home now. Finished up all the testing I could think of that would do any of us any good. Now I have a hell of a mess to try and sort out and explain.

Many of the runs that I did were with NO regard to what happened to the boost with the mods. The only thing I attempted to modulate was having as close to 20 psi at the end of a pull that I could. Funny thing I found was the more restricted the exhaust was the crappier boost modulation was. With the full 3" exhaust and no cat and the open exhaust with just the 2.5" downpipe/offroad pipe the boost was quite stable and didn't spike much at all. Some of the runs had up to 24 psi of a spike in them and then fell off to exceptable levels as the RPM climbed. Problem was it is cold as a witches tit here today and so is our dyno room, so this had the car hitting fuel cut in the 4500 rpm range. After 4 pulls back to back it would usually go away but then power would suffer. I ended up pulling some fuel out with the AFC to get rid of the cut in that area.

I did do a test on the Magnaflow muffler VS. the Buschur Racing lightweight muffler. I honestly thought in the back of my head that the Magnaflow would outflow our muffler, that's not what happened. Two runs back-to-back, one was 6 whp less the other was 10 whp less. The full 3" offroad system with our lightweight muffler made the same HP as an open exhaust on the car and did it with less boost, THAT was a shocker. I was right on the money with my estimates for the 3" highflow cat, if I remember right it was almost exactly 10 whp lost at the 315 whp level.

I am going to put together a full run down of all the parts and all the test performed so far in the morning and post them here. The parts will also be listed on our website from now on with the WHP increase that we gained during this testing.

I would have loved to had Al here while I was doing all this, as the flash would have eliminated the fuel cut without having to run the car lean with the AFC at 4500.

I am not going much further with testing until I can get together with Al and do some flashes. I don't want to make too much work for myself.

The MAS pipe and Upper i/c pipe with the BOV is going to go on the car next and that will be the end of the testing until we get some more new custom flashes.

Depending on the time frame I still intend to start tuning with the AEM EMS with all the factory sensors intact.

Something else, as I say, I am at home and am doing some of this from memory. Don't hold me to this. The 2.5" vs. 3" downpipe test was a wash. The HP from the 3" was higher but torque and spool up were so identical I wouldn't call either one a winner or looser. I think the torque was within a few TENTHS of a ft. lb. and the spool up was virtually identical.
As I have said always, run the 3" downpipe, no downside to running a larger exhaust on a turbo car, NONE.

It is going to be interesting to put all this in some type of order and look at it all now that it is done. It has been a very interesting couple of days. I have confirmed what I preach and it has shocked me how right it all proved to be.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

It may take us awhile to actually get dyno charts up. Jarrod and I can't figure out how to get the files opened up.

Here are the results that I feel are important. Please read carefully because it gets confusing. I will do my best though.

2004 Evolution RS. Bone stock, 2wd Dynojet. 237.1 whp/250.6 ft lbs

Parts were added in the order listed below with each part building on the previous:

1. BR air filter kit, 240.5 hp. Added 3.4 whp at the peak and over 7 whp in the midrange.

2. BR manual boost controller set at 20 psi at redline. 252.3 whp. Added 12 whp. This is the absolute minimum increase I would expect to see. Raising the boost later in the buildup would yield even more of an increase.

3. BR 2.5" axleback muffler. 267.1 whp, increase of 15 whp!

4. BR 2.5" downpipe. 270.4 whp, increase of 3.3 whp.

5. Super AFC with BR settings, 289.3 whp, increase of 19 whp.

This with the addition of a boost gauge and the mount for the boost gauge completes our Stage 0 and costs $995. Overall gains with this kit while remaining emmision legal with the stock cat and with a very quiet car was 52.2 whp and 29 ft. lbs of torque. HP per dollar spent is $19.06.

This package really puts the car into a great spot to do further upgrades from. Actually I was surprised by the next test:

We left the 2.5" downpipe on, added a 2.5" offroad pipe and the 3" catback with the Magnaflow muffler. The horsepower jumped to 313 whp and 292.9 ft lbs. For further comparison we ran an open exhaust system from the back of the offroad pipe, in other words no catback at all, the car only made 1 more whp. The open exhaust numbers were 314.4 whp.

We then went to the full 3" turbo back exhaust using the Magnaflow muffler and an offroad pipe. The car layed down 314.9 whp.

*Stage 1 kit is the Stage 0 with a full 3" exhaust and the Buschur Racing lightweight muffler. This means our Stage 1 with 94 octane, the AFC tuned in the 11.7 range on AFR's and 20 psi of boost at redline made 316 whp. This is an increase of 78.9 whp. Stage 1 is $1310. HP per dollar spent is $16.60.

Here are some other interesting numbers we found as we went along:

*On a full Stage 1 car making 314.9 whp (w/Magnaflow muffler) we switched it to our lightweight muffler, gains were minimal with HP going up to 316 whp.

*On a full Stage 1 car making 316 whp with our lighweight muffler we added our 3" highflow cat. The HP dropped to 307.9. Making the whp gain from an offroad pipe worth about 8.1 whp. I would say this isn't enough to justify polluting the air and risking running on public roads without one. The car also keeps the car MUCH quieter.

*Evo with AFC, Boost controller, air filter, boost gauge and mount with the bone stock exhaust on it makes 271 whp. This is a gain of 34 whp. Adding our full 3" exaust with an offroad pipe and the BR muffler to this added 45 whp to the car. In my wildest dreams I would not have expected to see that kind of power increase.

*The boost on these tests were for the most part unstable. I tried different boost controllers and ended up putting 50 dyno runs on the car to do this testing so far. The boost would spike as high as 24 psi on many of the runs and then I would work at getting it to try and hold 20 psi at redline. The least restrictive exhaust proved to be by far the best for getting the boost steady. Our full 3" system on the car left me with a fairly small spike that would go to 22 psi for a short instant and then settle and hold 20 psi. The point and nice thing about this was our highest number so far is 316 whp and it was done with the overall lowest boost numbers.

I think this just about covers all that has been done so far. Very good results and it also makes sense of our Stage 1 numbers on our site being so low. That will get changed as soon as we can get to it.

Thanks for reading. More yet to come.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

I believe probably the largest difference in the '03 EVO and the new '04 RS power is something as simple as boost pressure. The EVO's have from the factory an adjustable wastegate actuator arm on them. It doesn't take much to have a difference in boost pressure from one car to another. The '03's actuator arm could have been a few turns tighter from the factory which would easily raise the boost.

BTW, someone wanted to know the peak torque numbers we reached too. The best torque was 296.8 ft lbs.

David Buschur

[David Buschur]

With the car at 316 whp now, Stage 1, I wanted to see what reversing the some things would do. My thoughts behind this are for stock maybe the stock parts aren't so bad, for modified as the power goes up I know they get worse and worse.

The airbox is one. Today I put the stock box back in. At stock HP levels the gains at peak were only 3 whp. Today switching back made the HP levels fall off 5.2. Starts to show more and more restriction as the power levels go up.

The other that didn't make much difference in the beginning was the BOV upgrade. I had actually left it in as there wasn't a change. Today I took the BOV back out of the mix and was surprised that the car lost 9 whp. More than that on the way up. I knew last time we tried it (on the '03 EVO) there was a gain but we did it later in the game than I did this time.

Back to more testing.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

[David Buschur]

Ever hear of chasing your tail? That's what I have been doing all morning on this testing.

Last time the car was run we hit the 316 whp mark. Today for a baseline pull we only hit 304, that's a loss of 12 whp for absolutely no reason. I looked some things over and made a few more pulls and it stayed consistant so I tested the BOV and airbox. The losses that I posted in my last post were from the 304 baseline I did this morning.

I put the car back to Stage 1 PLUS the Forged BOV with the stock MAS pipe and stock upper i/c pipe just like I had it when it made 316 whp a few days ago. The car made the same 304-306 whp it was hitting from this morning.

Aggravated I figured what the hell and put the upper i/c pipe on and the MAS pipe upgrade. Ran the car and the power was virtually unchanged, picked up a little. I then pull up the air fuel mixture screen and look to see if something is going on there. Sure enough, the car with the i/c pipe and mas pipe on it is LEAN. I am talking 12.4:1 AFR's on pump gas.

So I end up putting some fuel in with the AFC, do a run and the power comes up. Still a little lean. Add more fuel to the AFC and try again, the car hits fuel cut. (cold here)

At this point I was getting disgusted. I put a call into Al and we talk for awhile and he reminds me that one of the first things we did on our '03 EVO was sent him the ECU and had him remove the fuel cut, nothing else just fuel cut. I didn't even remember ever doing that. Now I am stuck with a car that needs more fuel to make power but can't take it because it fuel cuts.

Bottom line is with the boost turned down a little to try and actually get a number I was still able to get an additional 12 whp from the MAS pipe and the upper i/c pipe. This would not take into any gains from the BOV upgrade as it was on before.

After logging the ignition timing on the Snap On monitor the best timing number we could come up with is a ****ty 4 degrees of advance. That is sickly for a timing number.

Bottom line is this. As much as I have sworn by the AFC's and as much as they do add a good amount of power for what is spent it is not working on our '04 while it did on our '03 quite well.

The car needs to have the computer reflashed. Al is coming up the 14th to do some custom tunes for customers and to put a flash together for the Stg 0, 1 and 2. I am anxious to see what is going to happen.

As a side note, a customer/friend of mine with an EVO had our Stage 4 kit on the car this summer. He only managed to run a 12.9 at 106 with it, the car was tuned with the AFC. When Al came up in August for the shootout I asked him to custom tune this particular car. The guy left here smiling like mad and went straight to the track. He came back through a few hours later really smiling saying he had dropped his time to 12.6 at 110 mph. Later found out that his clutch was in horrible shape and the trans needed rebuilt. After those fixes the car has now gone 12.1 at 116 mph on a pump gas flash running 112 octane fuel.

David Buschur

[Losdog]

Hey Dave do you suggest waiting since i wanted to get the afc? I have the 05 so i know theres more boost and since you are having trouble with the afc on your RS im getting kinda worried. My boost spikes to 1.5 bar then bobbles back and forth in between 1.2 and 1.3 bar. I don't wanna get the AFC and end up in the same boat as you with your car.

[evilmr]

Hey Dave do you suggest waiting since i wanted to get the afc? I have the 05 so i know theres more boost and since you are having trouble with the afc on your RS im getting kinda worried. My boost spikes to 1.5 bar then bobbles back and forth in between 1.2 and 1.3 bar. I don't wanna get the AFC and end up in the same boat as you with your car.

same here

[David Buschur]

I believe the flash is superior to the AFC in quite a few ways. When we first did the flash the AFC made more top end power than the flash. The flash was superior in the low end torque and HP levels though.

I believe after this next round of tuning the flash we are going to offer it as the main tuning tool and use the AFC as an option.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

[Losdog]

I figured I'd ask but it may just be me. I started noticing after i broke in my car ( i was taking it easy..... ) when i floor it the car seems not to pull as much as if i only use maybe 1/2 to 3/4 pedal pressure. I checked the intercooler piping and intake for loose fitting but i didn't see anything. Anyone else noticing any thing similar??? I figured i'd ask here since you were having boost problems also..... let me know. thx...