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View Full Version : Hitting 150 mph trap speeds with a "Green" EVO



David Buschur
02-11-2007, 09:19 PM
I do a lot of reading. I can only comprehend things I am very interested in though, otherwise 30 seconds after reading it I have no retention at all. I had a very hard time in school because of this. Wasn't interested, didn't care, made it hard to even cheat my way through.

Anyway, I am very interested in the environment, natural resources and my children being able to drive a car, breath our air etc.

Before one of you jumps up and calls me liar for selling more than my share of offroad pipes over the years, don't bother. I admit it and have arguements for it that's for another thread.....................

The recent testing/tuning we did on E85 in Keith's car really has me thinking about it all though. That car was just amazing and I think I am going to go that route with my own EVO RS.

Last year I burnt nothing in the car but C16. It's about $15 per gallon and I burnt up a lot of it.

The performance of the E85 (which was actually watered down to an E70) was just mind boggling.

I think with an actual E85 (85% ethanol) I can make as much power as I did on C16 and give less money to terrorists and use less of our non-renewable natural resources in the process.

I have set a goal for myself this year to have my daily driven street EVO run 150 mph trap speeds.

I think I am going to go one further and try to do it "green". I would like to attempt it on E85 and spend just $2 per gallon rather than $15.

If anyone gets Popluar Mechanics Magazine you need to read the article in it this month about the sand in Canada that has oil in it and how they are manufacturing it. It was a severe eye opener to me. The energy used up to get this oil is mind blowing. As the world runs out of oil it is getting harder and harder to find new reserves. It's just nuts.

As some of you know, I have a new Subaru too. We built parts for them in 2003 when I had a new WRX. Stopped messing with them because the EVO came out. Now I am back at it and I think I am going to convert it over too, the car is a beast, hard to believe how good it is. On E85 it would be simply incredible.

This fuel is very interesting so is the thought of maybe leaving a few more barrels of fuel for my children..........................

blackout
02-11-2007, 09:54 PM
That would be badass and save alot of money. But I want to know why E85 is so damn expensive even tho its only 15% gas.

vwjeff
02-11-2007, 10:05 PM
NOOOOOOOOO.

I just don't see this fuel being able to make more power than C16.

The gas station across from my work just had a new tank put in to sell this stuff... they were advertising it a $.75 a gallon the other day with your Krogar plus card :D You should have seen the people waiting to fill up, not knowing there milage was going down the drain.
I guess it would be good if your racing though?

Danimal
02-13-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't know if I really see E85 being as green as others but it is better than dino juice for the simple reason that it is renewable which is a big deal. If we are going to consider it as an alternative to dino we need to understand that it has some serious problems.

For one america currently wants to make the stuff out of corn which is a problem in that its a crop that we use to feed livestock. There are folks looking to make it out of agricultural waste which will make it FAR more palatable. As has been pointed out above, E85 also has far less energy content which means that when we start pumping it into Suburbans and H2s they will get maybe 6-8mpg if we are lucky.

The huge plus is that it will work great in high performance applications such as Daves EVO.

Dave- Please tell me if you ever care to check out some seriously green go fast toys. They are nowhere near as quick as what you play with now but they are still wildly fun and pretty damn quick considering that they can get 50mpg while running on waste oil.

For the past few years I have been working with RallyVW. We race a VW Golf TDI in RallyAmericas G5 which is in effect unlimited modifications 2wd. Last year in very limited action we finished 3rd in the nation while acquiting ourselves well against Mazdas full go Rally Mazdaspeed3 and a number of 350+ hp Neons.

In short diesel is cool as hell in that it is very UNLIKE what we once knew in the early 80s. You can make outrageous amounts of torque and get economy that is simply not possible even with hybrids (as they do best in city driving only).

Diesel is only getting better too. Just look at the car Audi took to LeMans this last year. They won the race outright with a TDI and proved without question that diesel and performance are not mutually exclusive.

Now back to E85. Please remember that OneLap of America has an alternative fuel division. E85 counts and if you show up with a full tilt boogie E85 Evo you could really clean up.

Oh, by the way... if anyone cares to check out the RallyVW stuff click to www.RallyVW.com

David Buschur
02-19-2007, 10:00 AM
I have done hours upon hours of reading over the last week about ethanol.

The point you made about the corn crop being used as livestock feed is correct but not a very good point about it not being good. The production of ethanol from corn leaves a high protein byproduct that can be fed to livestock after the ethanol is produced. There are also tens of thousands of acres of land that the government pays farmers to NOT plant each year.

Corn is not the best thing to make ethanol from. For every 1 unit of energy you need to produce it you only get 1.4 units back from it. The byproducts left over help make up for some of that as it can be re-used.

There are some grasses like switch grass, sugar cane, beats, waste wood byproducts etc that can be used and many are much higher yields for making ethanol. There is another type of grass (I am drawing a blank on the name of it right now) that can be and is grown in the USA. It yields 1,000 gallons of ethanol per acre compared to corn which is around 330 gallons per acre.

Good stuff. Very interesting reading all over the internet about it. Just makes sure you read both sides of the fence. Some are against it, some for it, both want to sell you on their points on why or why not to use it. The more I read the more I think it's a great idea.

Losdog
03-03-2007, 03:37 PM
i was watching futurecars on tv (i think thats the name of the show lol ) but it had a segment all about this. They showed cars using water, corn oil alcohol, crazy stuff. One guy even drank the water coming out of his exhaust lol, it was mind boggling. I saw if its cheaper try it gas by me is about 2.60 a gallon if this stuff costs 75 cents per you making money just gotta fill up more often. even if you get half the mileage with that low cost u can go back 3 times and be still banking the cash lol. Good reading sounds interesting c ya

dsmchris
03-03-2007, 04:30 PM
you guys are missing the point of alcohol. yeah, when you burn it in your engine that was designed to run on assoline, you get poor mileage. but, if you actually build an engine for alcohol, you can up your compression. i think its for every 1 point in cr you add, you get 20% more of your milage than before. as for e85, its still tainted.
as for the yields you get, im not real sure about that. but corn is just easy to grow. the farmers are not planting fields, because the grains that are grown take a lot of nutrients out of the soils. a friend of mine recently told me about how they are making ethanol from the methane gases produced from decomposing waste and how it actually has a pretty high yield. i think that would be a great source.
as for greasel (diesel), these motors make insane amounts of torque due to rediculous compression and heavy rotating assemblies. run about 18:1 in your car and see how much low end power it makes.
imo, none of these resources are renewable. we are simply converting energy and will eventually use all of the planets source. just think of earth as a big battery, non rechargable!

David Buschur
03-06-2007, 08:38 PM
Ethanol is absolutely renewable. You plant corn, it grows, you make fuel from it, you feed livestock with the left over by products of it. You plant it again etc. etc. It produces less green house gasses. There are companies producing methanol now using solar power. The soil being used up doesn't happen, that's what fertilizer is for. The fields not being planted is from the government paying farmers to not plant them so the isn't an over abundance of crops that can't be used/sold. There are farmers in my area that have planted hundreds of acres in trees that have to remain trees until they are mature. All government programs to keep them from planting crops.

On a small scale, if you were willing to work extremely hard you could plant, pick, shell, grind, ferment and turn corn into ethanol for pennies. This would require planting and all the other labor to be done by hand. Think about this, 3 acres of corn will produce about 450 bushels of corn. Each bushel will produce say 2.5 gallons per bushel. That's 1125 gallons of pure ethanol. Not sure how much fuel you burn in a year's time but that's quite a bit of fuel. At 20 mpg that's about 22,500 miles you can travel a year.

Legally you have to denature ethanol. So fuel has to be added. If you added 15% gasoline to this, making it E85, this would give you 1293 gallons of E85. Now you can go 25,860 miles per year.

What I am getting at is there was a time when I wondered what my kids might be doing in 50 years. No fossil fuels, no gasoline, no oil, no racing as we know it now. With the research I've been doing I don't see this every happening.

I am going to produce some ethanol of my own, just for the thrill of doing it.

Working on my still.............

scheides
03-07-2007, 10:58 AM
David, I like your logic but I wanted to take your example a step further, because a flag went off in my head: if everyone in america has a car (not quite true, but let's use that as a worst-case scenario), would there be enough land to support e85 for everyone?

in 2002 the usda reported that there were 2,263,000,000 acres of farm land in the US. In 2005 there are roughly 296,410,404 people living here.

So my question was, if there are 3 acres of land required for 20k miles (or so) of driving per person, will there be enough land left over for food?

Short answer: yes! This shows that we have about 7.6 acres of farm land per person for consumption (food and high-octane fun!).

That is all for now.

source for figures: http://www.ers.usda.gov/StateFacts/US.HTM

Danimal
03-07-2007, 11:21 AM
The news is actually better than that. New technology that is coming to the front that will let us make fuel from things that are currently thrown away as waste and or put in landfills! This will not oly help keep the price of fuel down but also help keep us green and happy in other ways.

On the biodiesel front, new technology that lets us make fuel from the oil in simple algae with an efficiency many hundreds of times better than soybeans. In short if america drove only diesels production area of about the size of rhode island could fuel america and have some room to spare.

On a cooler note, biodiesel has a VERY high energy density unlike E85 and it's not unreasonable to think that a modern diesel could get twice the mpg's that a car running on E85 may. To top it off the stuff is nontoxic in its pure form. You could take a swim in a vat of the stuff and come out smiling. Cool technology indeed.

Hybrid AWD
03-11-2007, 03:24 PM
I guess I could chime in here since I am a Ethanol Plant Designer. I work in Williamsburg, Virginia for a company called Delta-T Corporation. For those of you who are interested here is their website: http://www.deltatcorp.com/deltatcorp/index.asp

The ethanol industry is a huge market right now. It is amazing at how many people are for and against it all. Seriously. The people who are against E85 are the people who have no sense of new technology and the idea of how much money is thrown away to foriegn oil. Ethanol is the gasoline replacement... period.

With my company spending millions of dollars on new technologies each year, you'd be amazed at the advancements we have made. Currently we are incorporating a new fractionation setup in any plant who decides to use this method. Basically a quick run down of what it does, it takes a single corn kernal, cuts off the white tip on the end, peels the corn kernal and then uses everything else in the plant. The waste of that corn kernal is then contained and shipped to local farms to feed their livestock.

I know there is also people out there who say E85 is watered down gasoline. That is 100% false. Anyone who says that is an idiot.

The fact that you are getting less mpg using ethanol is true, but here is something to consider:
- Less MPG
- Less Dollar per Gallon
- Less US Dollar converted into foriegn money
- Cheaper feed for local farm livestock
- Ethanol can be created from just about anything with starch

Ok so this list could go on and on about the pro's and cons. Granted, I may be a little biased because I design these plants, but I just state the truth.

I will say this that kind of dissappoints me. Don't think that the big shots over seas aren't investing in E85. Look up a company called E85 Inc. (www.e85.us) and do a little research as to where the owner of that company comes from. It's all about who can pay the most to make the most in this world we live in. That company is builing 10 100,000,000 gallon per year plants in the US. After they are built, they are building gas stations to sell the fuel. Just a little inside tip.

To shine a little light on what I mean when I said ethanol can be created by just about anything, there was a engineering firm in Canada who did testing on using grass clippings from your yard to create ethanol, there was also some testing done here in the US on using coal. I bet WV would love to open a few ethanol plants which used coal, talk about hope for the states economy to make a comeback. The problem with these as of right now is it takes more energy to produce it from those raw materials that it's worth to spit out the final product.

The last thing I want to mention is this: If you have ever heard of Shakers Vodka, that was created from a plant we built. What they did was prior to adding the special additives to where you can't drink the ethanol, they ship it out, send it to a different refinery and make the vodka. I thought that was kinda neat. Also, not only does the ethanol place have the ability to make vodka and help lower feeding cost for livestock, the plants also have the ability to recapture some of it's disposal products such as CO2 to be bottled and sold to other companies as well.

I will shine some more light on the subject if I get some time when at work.

manley57
03-11-2007, 10:58 PM
If we do convert to E-85 the politictians will tax it into next week, I could see it now.

We are taking food away from the childern and the poor to power our cars, boats, RV's, ect., so we must pay more taxes to balance out the injustice between those who work and those who dont.

Its funny how we pay more and more for our injustices but the debt is never paid just gets bigger.

Can we say scam.

biglady112
03-12-2007, 06:47 AM
E85 user here guys. I had been a huge fan of using Sonoco 114 and 118 leaded fuels. Had great luck over the past five years with each. With the new mirage I bought, after maxing out the 950's on pump gas, we decided to upgrade to what I would never need anything ever again.

Well. My car runs WAY better on E85 than it ever did on the 114 and 118. I could not throw enough at the motor. This was on a 1g nonturbo throttle body, stock 2G head, stock cams and intake and bone stock junk yard 6 bolt bottom end. I was running 39psi on my SCM6176. THe car is insane. It just can't take enough abuse. It has recorded wheel spin as high as 140mph on street tires. I am trapping 125-130mph on street tires. Et's suck, but the car throws down none the less.

Go for it Dave. Everyone here in colorado who is a major player in our area has converted over. The mustang guys are eating the stuff up and even run the stations dry. We have on station no one makes an effort to. We use this one. It is like giggle juice. The motor just gets all excited when it gets to drink it. Never had a car run so well.

Steven

Danimal
03-12-2007, 08:38 AM
What? You mean your fuel pumps aren't blowing up or falling out all over the place?

blackout
03-12-2007, 06:08 PM
If we do convert to E-85 the politictians will tax it into next week, I could see it now.

We are taking food away from the childern and the poor to power our cars, boats, RV's, ect., so we must pay more taxes to balance out the injustice between those who work and those who dont.

Its funny how we pay more and more for our injustices but the debt is never paid just gets bigger.

Can we say scam.

With the new deal with Brazil importing ethanol there is like a 54 cent tariff on every gallon. I think that is the reason why E85 is only about 20 cents cheaper than gas.

Jazzie604
03-13-2007, 04:06 PM
damnit, you guys need to stop talking about this stuff, its making me jealous. I dont know of any station anywhere close to here that sells it, and I want some!! Id love to have something that can give me an extra power boost with out major mods. damn KY, hurry up!

evoair
03-14-2007, 01:55 AM
Hi there David and everyone,

I was just reading an arcticle today about a New Zealand company who is working with San Diego company Diversa to derive ethanol from wood.
They say that it is possible to extract up to 60 times more ethanol than the process uses energy wise. Wood actually has a massive amount of carbohydrate that can be broken down and fermented into ethanol.

Basically they are finding perticular types of trees (willow etc) that can be broken down easily by cheaper emzynes than are currently available and will grow fast so that the lag time for production is quicker. They are also working on how to use current stocks of pine as well.

The advantage of wood is that its is easy to grow on depleted soils, yelds a greater output per acre of land, and isnt a food source, so doesnt drive up the prices of corn and sugar cane.

Current predictions on cost is in between sugar based ethanol and corn based ethanol, so provides a furthur saving of 25% compared to corn ethanol.

The best thing about wood is that any country could work towards being self sufficient fuel wise, and the extra tree planting will help with co2 levels etc.

Here in New Zealand we have a large (relatively) forestry industry and export around US$410million overseas-- but we import US$20 Billion dollars worth of petrol each year. If we were to use those exports for producing ethanol, we will be well on the way self sufficiant and saving the country millions of dollars.

It really doesnt matter what fuel we end up using, as long as its renewable, energy effiecient and doesnt add to the worlds pollution.


My government has been taking its time over supplementing petrol with ethanol, as we dont have any common source for it in this country. With the delvelopement of solutions like this, we will be able to make a large step forword in being more green and self sufficient- for what its worth, I would LOVE to have E85 at my local gas station, but realistically that wont happen until 2010.

Thanks

Aaron